the 411.pt4.
*This article has been updated and “re-worked” (October 8, 2009)
I have been hesitant to write this post, mainly due to the topic involved. But in reading some other blogs about this issue, I would like to enter in my two cents. The issue is a heavy one, but one that I think needs to be addressed: Gay Christians.
Let me start off and say, that this post is not meant to judge the heart of a person (a Christian) but to speak about the fruit of a person (Christian). God knows the heart of man (Luke 16:15); man does not. The heart relationship between a person and God is between them and no one else. Man has no evidence of a person’s salvation, except what is seen through the actions that person lives out. In other words, one’s salvation / relationship with God is seen by the kind of life they live, or by the fruit they bear (Matthew 7:16-20). It’s in this light, as fellow brothers and sisters in Christ, that we should spur one another on in good deeds (Hebrews 10:24), so that the fruit of God’s children will be seen by many and in so doing the world may know and worship Him as their Creator (1 Peter 2:12).
If a person is a Christian, a member of the Body of Christ, the Church, and they are not living as they ought (according to what God has outlined through scripture), then I believe, as scripture states, we are to call those people out on their actions (1 Corinthians 5:12). In a sense we are our brother’s keeper. Are we to judge them and state that because of their sin(s) they are no longer GOD’S children? NO! Though I do believe that if my friend is struggling in an area, I am to call him/her on it in the hopes of leading them to reconcile their wrong doing and fix whatever is broken between them and God. I believe this is part of “loving your neighbor as yourself” … loving as Jesus loved us (John 13:34). Jesus, whenever He encountered a person in need of healing, almost always ended the conversation with a comment like this: your sins are forgiven … go and sin no more. Jesus brought healing and restoration, and He also brought a command to live differently then before. As John 15:16 states, “You did not choose ME, but I chose you and appointed you to go and bear fruit – fruit that will last … This is MY command: love each other.”
It is in this context that I write this post.
To simply state, it is my personal belief that a person who is actively pursuing a gay identity (life) cannot be actively pursuing after Jesus. Again, this is not to say that they aren’t Christians, but rather I question their desire for and commitment to Jesus. There is a difference. One can say they are a Christian and live “like the world” – lie, cheat, steal, have pre-material sex, have affairs while married, etc. Just because one says that they are a Christian, does not imply that they are living a Christian lifestyle. Jesus called out many people who claimed to love God and yet lived for themselves. As Jesus stated in Matthew 6:24, “No one can serve two masters. Either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both GOD and _________ (fill in the blank).” This verse does not just apply to money and materialism; it deals with anything you put before God.
Now this approach makes some assumptions. First, that you agree God’s Word is correct and is relevant for today’s culture. Second, that you are striving to live a Godly life while striving to live a life you want – knowing that it may be sinful. Third, this statement makes the assumption that you are willingly compromising one to attain the other. Though these are simply assumptions that I am making, I feel (again based on my experiences and the experiences of others I know) that my assumptions are correct.
Additional assumptions could also be made that either you agree that homosexuality is a sin, but choose to ignore it; you believe that homosexuality is not a sin, and choose to ignore the scriptures that says it is; or you choose to remain neutral in this debate and strive to live both “sides of the fence”. I think I can safely say, that those who live an openly gay Christian life fall into one of these three assumptions.
A committed Christian – follower of Christ – lives their life not for themselves but for Him who has given them new life (Matthew 16:24-26). This means believing in and agreeing to live out what Jesus has commanded. The God of the Old Testament is the same God of the New Testament. What God’s Word has stated before is still relevant for today (2 Timothy 3:16-17). Many argue that Jesus fulfilled all the laws in the Old Testament and therefore we don’t need to refer to them any longer. But this is only half-true. Jesus came to fulfill the law of the prophets, He came to fulfill the ceremonial laws of the Old Testament and came to uphold the moral laws of God (found in both Testaments). In so doing, we need to do two things: recognize our salvation is in Jesus and not works, and to live moral lives that uphold the standard’s that God set in place. This is part of being a disciple of Christ – a follower of Him (Luke 6:46, John 14:15, John 10:7-18).
When I was living as a gay man who also professed to be a disciple of Christ, I knew full well that I was willingly compromising what I believed with how I was living. I disregarded the scriptures against homosexuality – I justified my actions and the scripture. I determined in my mind that being gay was how God made me, and therefore God wanted me to be gay. I rationalized in my mind and heart that ex-gay ministries were wrong and that gay Christians were loved by God just as much as straight Christians. And any scripture that refuted these beliefs, I disregarded as being mistranslated and not relevant for today’s need and time.
I was right about somethings (like God loving gay Christians, as well as Christians who are addicted to porn, gambling, and gossiping), but I was also wrong about a lot of things. In my struggle to justify my lifestyle with scripture, GOD got a hold of me … and began to open my eyes to His truth. Could every verse against my gay identity truly be mistranslated? Out of the entire Bible, the only scriptures mistranslated were the ones dealing with homosexuality. Could this really be true? Was the real issue God’s Word, or was the real issue me? I began to wonder that, if some of God’s word was untrue then couldn’t all of it be found untrue? And if this was the case, why even profess to believe in Him anyways … it would be easier to live life without Him then to try and balance the two. Right? I was left with a big choice to make – live for God, all of Him, or live for myself. I knew, deep within, that I couldn’t have both.
I suspect that many gay Christians face the same battle. I suspect that many try to balance both “lives” but in the end only come up short handed because the life they truly want is being conflicted with another one. The question I pose than is this: can a person be wholeheartedly devoted to Christ, and His Word, and also be devoted to living a gay identity, which knowingly goes against God’s Word? Can the two lives be authentically lived by the same person? I don’t believe you can; because within your relationship with Him there is compromise. How can you be ’sold-out’ to something that you don’t fully trust? Can you see where the compromise is?
Now, I am not talking about people who struggle with attractions to the same-sex. I am talking about people who claim a gay identity, have (or are pursuing) a relationship with the same-sex, who call themselves Christian, and who don’t think anything they are doing is wrong. I firmly believe that a person can struggle with same-sex attractions and also follow hardcore after Jesus – it’s called being celibate. I fully applaud those men and women!
Jesus said that we are either for Him or against Him … we can’t take the parts we like and throw out the parts we don’t agree with. A person either fully accepts or fully denies Him. That’s where your choice comes into play. This is where a person’s gay identity becomes a choice rather than something inborn.
Again, I am not saying that gay people don’t love God or don’t want a relationship with God. There is plenty of evidence that they do. What I am saying is that I don’t believe a person who is actively living out their gay identity can also actively live out their devotion to Christ. The same can be said for anyone who tries to live out a life that goes against the standards of God – see such stories as Luke 15 (the prodigal son), John 4 (the Samaritan woman), John 8 (the woman caught in adultery), and Mark 10 (the rich young ruler).
God wants His children to pursue Him. Sometimes that means leaving behind our desires (dreams and wants) in order to follow after Him wholeheartedly. Following after God means that we all have a cross to bear; we all have something else that is going to tug at our hearts for our attention, getting our focus off of God. In that struggle, we have a choice to make: live for God or live for ourselves. six11 ministries strives to help people chose God over themselves.


I’ve believe you got it right, but that is true with any sin. We cannot be pursuing our sin and not handing it over to Christ and truly be following Christ 100%. It is a struggle with any sin. We have to make that choice to follow after Christ and take up our cross. (Taking up your cross in no easy task) but he is with us through all of it and when we fail we can hand it over to him. Let us pursue the Lord instead of sin.
Shawn wrote:
“Additional assumptions could also be made that either you agree that homosexuality is a sin, but choose to ignore it; you believe that homosexuality is not a sin, and choose to ignore the scriptures that says it is; or you choose to remain neutral in this debate and strive to live both ’sides of the fence’. I think I can safely say, that those who live an openly gay Christian life fall into one of these three assumptions.”
Your assumptions rest on one glaringly false assumption – that the Ex-Gay view of the clobber passages is the correct view.
Yet the Ex-Gay view of the clobber passages is most assuredly NOT the view of Jewish believers before the coming of Christ and is most assuredly NOT the view of the body of Christ for 2000 years.
It should also be pointed out that your personal experience is not normative for others.
If Ex-Gay beliefs were true, we would expect to see a much higher success rate in your change ministries.
The low percentage of genuine change, from homosexual to heterosexual, even in the most ardently committed clients, testifies to the falseness of your views on the clobber passages.
Rick Brentlinger
GayChristian101.com
Rick,
Yes, I am making those assumptions – as stated above – just like you make the assumption that those particular passages have been misinterpreted wrong.
The bible scholars, and Jewish leaders, that I have talked with do confirm that these verses have been translated correctly. But as I have noted on a previous blog, both of us claim we’re right … can we agree that we both disagree? Each has our ‘proof’ … I’m confident that GOD’S Word speaks for itself. Besides my above question still stands, “out of all the sins mentioned in the Bible why are the verses about homosexuality the only ones mistranslated?”
And while I agree that my experience is not the norm for others, neither is your experience the norm for others.
As far as the ’success rate’ for ex-gay ministries, that depends of the person not the ministry. Put this perspective in view of going to church. I can go to church all I want, spend time in GOD’S Word, and get involved with every Bible Study being offered … BUT if I am not willingly taking this information and actively applying it to my life, then it’s MY fault that I’m not growing – not my churches. The same is said for ex-gay ministries. Many who attempt ex-gay ministries, and fail, do so with wrong intentions and too high of expectations. Their focus is on ‘getting straight’ instead of seeking CHRIST as their source of wholeness.
shawn
I totally agree Shawn. I am also an ex-homosexual, and I made excuses for my sin all of my life, until by the grace of God I woke up and saw that I was living in deception. While I am not married with children, I have found complete freedom from homosexual behavior. Jesus says very plainly in Revelation 22:14 and 15 “Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life and may go through the gates into the city. Outside are the dogs, those who practice magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices falsehood. I am sorry, but no matter how you slice it, homosexuality is sexual immorality. This verse means ALL sexual immorality. And Paul said in Acts that there should not even be a HINT of sexual immorality among believers. Once I truly submitted my life to Christ, and gave up homosexuality I entered into a deep, loving relationship with Jesus Christ. He changed me! I did NOT go through an ex-gay ministry… I sought the Lord on my own and when I was really dedicated to Him he brought freedom and filled me with the Holy Spirit. Now, I DO NOT want a relationship with a man. Nothing compares with what I have found in Jesus. It is WONDERFUL to be free from homosexuality! Feel free to click on my name and go to my page and read my testimony.
There is real freedom. That was the whole point of Jesus dying. He has given us a chance to seek him and find freedom. If we do not take advantage of that now, we will not be spending eternity with Him. These are not my words, they are His. I wish it were not so, as I know a lot of people that are deceived into believing a lie. I do not want to see them go to hell. But God made the rules, not me. And what HE says goes. I do not get to choose what I agree with and disagree with.
Great post Shawn!
You’re right A.J. – it’s all about your relationship with JESUS. Man cannot fix man … man can help man find restoration … but JESUS is the only one that can fix a person and restore a person.
While I participated in ex-gay ministries, it wasn’t until I actively pursued CHRIST and HIS wholeness – not a program – did I experience true freedom.
Click here to read more about this: http://six11.wordpress.com/2008/08/13/the-411pt3/
Thanks for your encouragement man. And praise GOD will your story of HIS glory!
Gay Christians have been around for a very long time, going back to martyrs in Roman times.
Jesus healed the Centurian’s slave, and eunichs were made for the kindom of heaven.
Ex-gay people or people who are bi-sexual are not a good example of this. We have to look to gays who have been gay, are committed to Jesus, and who do build churches in his name.
There are many biblical scholars that call a lot of anti-gay quotes in the bible historically suspect, and also plain weird. I too have talked to Jewish scholars and academics as seminaries, and they disagree with the anti-gay bias or the cultural mischaracterization. If you are ex-gay, then I think your issue is different. You didn’t like being gay, or were bisexual, but most certainly you weren’t in any committed gay relationships, nor did you serve in gay ministries. I’m not counting right wing conservative churches here, because there just as many liberal scholars that simply refute the homophobic interpretations of homosexuality itself. This article is suspect, and not inclusive of lesbian and gay scholars who challenge the heterosexism inherent in this.
Shawn,
you are sitting on a panel tonight at my former University, Huntington University in Indiana. i say former because i am a gay Christian woman who cannot attend that school for identifying as such. i disagree with your statements listed above about homosexuality and Christianity. I love Christ and he is my first. i do not believe that sex before marriage is acceptable no matter what your orientation. i fully trust that the Lord loves me and has guided me to the person i am called to join with for life, that person just so happens to be another woman.
i am intrigued that HU would even have a conversation about this topic but even more that you are apart of it.
however, the topic i wished to converse about is this: i do not believe that only the 6 verses on homosexuality are mistranslated . in fact, i believe there are many that are, but i believe that the contextual relevance is being ignored. we are forgetting that women were property, that two men being together would mean one man had to defile himself and become a ‘woman’ in the eyes of the law, and that many things that the Bible states to be sin are ignored and declared inaccurate for todays time.
are you aware that there is no word for homosexual in neither greek nor hebrew? how is it then that we find that word in our Bible today? are you aware that the hebrew word for abomination “toevah” means ritually unclean or unacceptable? are you bound by ritual? or did the cross set you free from it? is a wife still the husbands property? can a man still buy a woman he raped from her father for 50 sheckels of silver? are women also silent in your church or slaves allowed to be sold? are you bound to the law presented in Acts 15 that you cannot consume blood or meat of strangled animals? how can you pick and choose which laws were created for past people, that are now outdated?
homosexuality was just an act until about 100 years ago when the APA began to understand it as an orientation. how then can we, with our growing knowledge and understanding of the human psyche, remain bound by laws written more than 1500 years ago?
i wish that i lived closer to Huntington so that i could come and have a civil conversation with you instead of this post, im interested in the way the Spirit has led you, but thus far i respectfully disagree with the convictions you hold.
also i was wondering if you had watched the documentaries “fish out of water” or “for the bible tells me so” both speak to a large number of people that are considered “Bible scholars”.
looking forward to your response.
in Him,
alex
Hey Alex,
Thanks for commenting. It’s a shame you can’t come to HU tonight, cause I would like to talk about things – it’s easier than trying to converse through posting.
I agree with you that the Lord loves you – He always has and He always will. I have no doubt that you love the Lord, as well. Saying otherwise wasn’t the intention of my post. I’m sorry if you took it to mean something else. What I am mostly writing about here, is the fruit that a Christian produces in his or her life – especially a person who is gay and a Christian. Jesus is very clear about Christians and the fruit that they bear – be it good or bad. He states that upon these things we will be judged (John 15 is a good place to start on this topic). What I am simply saying here is this: while a gay person may in fact be a Christian, I disagree that they can fully live as a gay person and as a disciple of Christ.
This is my conviction. I’m not asking you to believe it, but rather check it out for yourself.
As for the Bible questions … I am not a scholar by no means, but I have spent many years studying (from both sides) what the Bible says and doesn’t say about being gay. I hold that all scripture is God-breathed, and that all scripture is infallible. I trust what God’s Word says, and because of that I align my life to it accordingly – no matter what I am called to give up (even my gay identity). I firmly believe that ALL Christians are to do the same. Again, and again, Christ calls us to deny ourselves, to pick up our cross, and follow after Him. We are called to offer ourselves as living sacrifices, holy and pleasing to the Lord – daily. We are called to trust Him, walking by faith and not by sight. We are called to endure hardships – even face inward struggles – as God refines us and further sanctifies us.
The playing field of being a Christian is the same – no matter what you are struggling/dealing with. Jesus never said that our life would be easy, but He did say that our love for Him would be seen through our obedience to His Word. Right?
As for the comment about “homosexual”, read this interesting article on the subject. And no, I have not seen “Fish Out of Water” or “For the Bible Tells Me So” … I really have no interest in seeing them.
-SH