A “Lively” talk about Gay Soldiers.

I saw this on Ex-Gay Watch, and had to re-post it with some comments.

For those who don’t know who Scott Lively is, here is a brief rundown: he wrote a book claiming that the Nazis were gay, and that gay men and women are responsible for the Holocaust.  This claim is ridiculous, especially since many gays were targeted and thrown into prison camps by Hitler’s army.  Still, Lively contends that this was just a cover up so as not to let on that Hitler and his men were actually gay themselves.

Lively is also connected to the Anti-Homosexual Bill in Uganda.  This bill wants to outlaw gays and lesbians, through either jailing them or executing them – depending on the severity of their crime.  This bill is also known as “Kill the Gays Bill”, which I have written about before.

Comedy Central did an interview with Lively to talk about his crusade in helping [hating] gays and lesbians.  He has spoken out many times on the issue of gays in the military – which this interview tries to understand.  Below is the video.

I’m sorry for being blunt here, but this guy is a joke!  As Andrew Marin states concerning this issue, and I fully agree: Scott Lively does not speak for the entire Christian community.  He may speak for a slim number of people, but certainly not the majority – those who are dedicated to spreading the Truth and Love of Christ to the nations.

All of this has gotten me thinking: what is the big deal about gays serving in the military?  I mean, really, what is the harm?  Aren’t they already serving their country?  Haven’t they been serving their country for years upon years?

I know I commented about this issue before, but I really think we need to have this conversation again.

I found an article online from Chuck Colson, where he comments about why overturning “Don’t Ask Don’t Tell” (DADT) will actually do more harm than good.  Colson’s conclusion is this: since men in the military hold a tight bond with each other – a brotherly love – having openly gay men and women will disrupt this bond with their “pro-gay-rights” agenda.  His article can be found here.

Unfortunately, Chuck Colson’s words mimic like-minded voices of Christian leaders.  They feel that giving gays the right to serve their country openly will only bring about trouble.  I totally disagree.

Now, I like Colson.  He has some great insight into theology and making disciples who love Jesus.  However, I truly believe he is wrong in his conclusion and belief about gays serving in the military.  There is nothing wrong with men and women serving their country, while being openly gay.  Like I said before, this has been going on for years.  All they are asking is that they be allowed to openly confess who they are, as their straight fellow soldiers do.  Whether you agree with the issue of homosexuality or not, the DADT policy is uncalled for.  It is long past due that the bill be overturned.

So … what’s the big deal?  Why all the fuss, brothers and sisters of the Church; why can’t gays and lesbians openly serve in the military?

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21 responses to “A “Lively” talk about Gay Soldiers.

  1. I’m a sailor stationed in San Diego. I haven’t written yet about the Don’t Ask Don’t Tell issue, but I’m glad you have. As a Sailor, I’m sure I’ve served with homosexuals before…pretty sure of it actually, and I found the ones I honestly suspected of being so to be just as efficient as heterosexual Sailors. As far as morality is concerned, once we get all of the heterosexual Sailors to do God’s will, we can worry about what the homosexual ones are doing.

    Of course, this doesn’t mean that I don’t think homosexuality is wrong, according to the scriptures. The issue of them serving in the military, however, is a non-spiritual issue. Hate the sin, perhaps, but I will work next to the guy.

    • Thanks so much for your input, Dan! Glad to hear someone’s perspective – from within the service – on this issue. You’re right, whether they can serve in the Military is not a “spiritual” issue. Gays and lesbians are people wanting to help protect our country … so let them.

      Thanks, also, for serving our country man. May God’s strength and fullness continue to be with you.

  2. I, too, served in the military, but with someone who was openly homosexual (sorry… I don’t use the word “gay” which, I believe, is more of a PR slant than an accurate discription). No one wanted to be alone with this guy. Had we gone to combat (and we were close once), his sexual behavior would have caused a problem.

    I’d like to pose this question: if open homosexuals are allowed to serve in the U.S. military (putting potential lovers together in the same barracks, maybe even the same room), on what legal grounds will the military be able to deny men and women soldiers the right to share barracks/rooms?

    • Thanks for posting Organic Peas …

      In reading your question, I think you are making an assumption that if two gay men (or more) are in the same barracks, that they will automatically become sexual with one another. While that may happen, it’s a very small chance. I think it is safe to say that this type of situation will not happen, though, due to the fact that the majority of gay men (and women) are private about having sex – they don’t normally choose to have sex in public … especially in military barracks. Believe it or not, gay men and women like to have sex in privacy … like most of us straight men and women do.

      You’re question is most likely based off of the mindset that gay men are only interested in sex. This is not true. Yes, a number of men are – just as a number of straight men are solely interested in sex. The majority of gay men, though, aren’t. They want to live simple lives, like everyone else. Gay soldiers want to serve their country, just like any other soldier.

      There is nothing to fear with having openly gay men and women in the military. I mean, they are already IN the military anyways. So what’s going to change, other than them being open about who they are? Nothing.

      Straight soldiers date, get married, have spouts with their lover, and engage in sex with female soldiers all the time … the military hasn’t crumbled yet … so why / how are gay men and women different? How are they going to destroy our military system?

    • I certainly don’t know the answer to this, except that the military won’t allow lovers to bunk together. I would assume that a homosexual man (or woman) would have to “behave” just like heterosexual folks would (or should). It is a very touchy issue. My only point was that homosexuals serving in the military was less of a spiritual issue than folks make it out to be.

  3. Too much to comment on right now, except this. Dan said: “My only point was that homosexuals serving in the military was less of a spiritual issue than folks make it out to be” and “Of course, this doesn’t mean that I don’t think homosexuality is wrong, according to the scriptures. The issue of them serving in the military, however, is a non-spiritual issue. Hate the sin, perhaps, but I will work next to the guy.”

    If it’s wrong according to the scriptures, it’s wrong. The King of Kings and Lord of Lords rules over every aspect of life, including the military. I can’t fathom someone saying, “It’s wrong, it’s sinful, but this is the military so that doesn’t matter.”

  4. I respect your opinion, of course. I must be careful because I don’t want this conversation to be too lively, lest my truly sailor side come out. Just know that I disagree with your comment. It doesn’t mean that I don’t think God isn’t king of kings, or that his sovereignty doesn’t extend to the military (Praise him!). However, if he rules over the military, he can just kick them out himself. I think you will agree that this isn’t the case.

    • Dan said, “However, if he rules over the military, he can just kick them out himself. I think you will agree that this isn’t the case.”

      Let’s rephrase that to say, “However, if he rules over society, he can just get rid of murderers and rapists and child molesters himself. I think you will agree that this isn’t the case.” So does that mean WE shouldn’t have laws dealing with murderers, rapists, and child molesters?

    • OK, now from a woman’s point of view. Guys, if we are going to talk about the morality issue, then let’s talk about lying, gossiping, drunkenness (which I know first hand alot of soldiers do frequently on their own time of course, just like civilians do), sexual affairs, overeating (which is lack of self-control), should I go on. It is not just a matter of morality, it is a matter of defending our freedom! I know several homosexuals that are probably the most loving and take care of the people in their lives way better than some heterosexuals that I know! The only concern that I have on the over-ruling of the “Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell” is the abuse and hate that may be used to attack these fellow soldiers. I worry alot about their safety. But trust me, they are human beings that have the same love from the same God that we do. And He does love them unconditionally, just like we ought to!

  5. Dan, this is what I see so often from Christians who make a statment, are called on it, but can’t back up their words. They try to make themselves look like they’re taking the high road by bowing out, then insult the other party by saying, “You can call it a win if you want,” insinuting that the other person was actually wrong. You made some statements that were, at the very least, not very well thought out. They were, in my opinion, illogical. Should you choose to not discuss this further, that’s your right. But it would have been nice if you’d taken responsibility for those statements by either defending them or saying they were wrong.

  6. Jenny, I agree with you 100%.

    Organic Peas, I wish I knew your name so I could address you in a more professional manner. I admit, and apologize for, being hasty and unprofessional in my response to your previous post. The reasons, philosophically, for bowing out, was that murder, theft, etc, are moral issues that the entire human race more or less agree on. Homosexuality, however, is a purely spiritual issue, as it relates to homosexuality itself. When it comes to marriage, serving in the military, etc, are not necessarily spiritual issues. An adulterer can serve in the military and I doubt you would complain (correct me if I’m wrong, and then we can discuss that as well). The reason people don’t mind heterosexuals even though they are often worse morality-wise is because they are heterosexuals.

    Murder, theft, etc, are wrong on any level, spiritually or secularly-speaking (I know that’s not a word). Homosexually is only wrong on a spiritual level. That’s why laws, in a non-theocracy like America, cannot deal with spiritual-only issues.

    I’m not prepared for this type of discussion, which is why I should have kept my mouth shut, but there you go. I didn’t mean to insult you earlier, but you are right…it was a very unprofessional thing to do, and I am sorry I did it. I hope I can find your forgiveness.

  7. The only problem that I have with the over-ruling of the Dont Ask/Dont Tell is the abuse and violence that I fear will happen to them. I know it is more accepted than it used to be, but there are still alot of hateful people out there and I do worry about them. I guess it is because I am a MOM and that is my job to worry about our children! haha So, I will end this with my famous saying to my kids and their friends….Be Careful out there! and love you all!

    • Jenny, the military is a different place now, for the most part. I doubt there would be very many attacks. People would probably want to get out of the military, or not reenlist, but I doubt there would be many attacks. In fact, if the ban were overturned, the homosexuals would probably be safer. The military doesn’t take hate crimes very well. The perpetrators would be punished I’m sure.

  8. I don’t think anyone is denying the supremacy of Christ, over and within all things (Colossians 1:15-17). Christ is the Lord of Lords and King of Kings, regardless of how humanity lives their life. His rule and authority over us is not limited to our response to Him … at the end of it all, we will all stand before Him and give an account for our lives.

    As Christians, we cannot go into society and demand that our beliefs be heard, accepted, and upheld. We can try … we can pray that God would raise Christian leaders to help establish Christian principles … but we cannot expect a fallen world to accept and adhere to God’s Truth. In the Church, yes – we better do so … in the world though, I don’t think it’s possible. Even Christ says that this world will reject His Truth.

    We are to be light in the darkness … not lawmakers … we should be helping people to see the light of Christ, in truth and love … not through dismissing civil rights, or making ourselves superior to others. At the Cross of Christ, is level ground, which we all (should) find ourselves on. I need the grace of Christ, just as much as my gay brothers and sisters do …

    If we should dismiss gays and lesbians from the military, based on Christian morality, then we need to dismiss those who cheat on their spouses, those who curse, those who lie, those who steal, those who overeat, those who look at porn …. etc. The military is not Christian-driven; it is not run, nor built upon, Christian morality. It was began to protect the country, to keep and bring freedom to the people. The military is not a religious organization … neither is the government.

    The issue isn’t really should gays serve in the military. They already do – whether we know it or not. And they will continue to serve this country, whether we allow them to or not.

    The issue is this: will we (who are straight and Christian) see them as people, for who they are, or will we continue to see them as “a sin”, a lesser part of humanity?

    Again, I will go back to my original question: what is the real harm of allowing gays to openly serve in the military?

    I agree with Jenny, in that their openness could make them more prone to abuse by “gay-bashers” and such. Which is a shame. Other than that though, I can see no harm in over-turning the “Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell” policy.

    Dan – I am glad you spoke up and shared. Thanks for “coming back” and responding. Please continue to do so, as you feel led to.

  9. Wow… it’s hard to keep up in a “three-against-one” situation, so forgive me if I miss any pints any of you made.

    I think the following paragraph by Shawn pretty much sums up what he, Dan, and Jenny are saying. Correct me if I’m wrong:

    “If we should dismiss gays and lesbians from the military, based on Christian morality, then we need to dismiss those who cheat on their spouses, those who curse, those who lie, those who steal, those who overeat, those who look at porn …. etc. The military is not Christian-driven; it is not run, nor built upon, Christian morality. It was began to protect the country, to keep and bring freedom to the people. The military is not a religious organization … neither is the government.”

    And to add one more quote, this from Dan: “Homosexuality is only wrong on a spiritual level.”

    That’s where I disagree. Homosexuality is NOT only wrong on a spiritual level. We need to look at how God views sin. While you guys are equating homosexuality with gossip with adultery with gluttony, God, in the OT (and yes, I know we’re not “under the law” today, but bear with me) treats God various sins in different ways.

    Homosexuality and adultery were punishable by death. Lying (with the possible exception of perjury) and overeating were not. Why was this? I believe because those sins punishable by death had such an impact on society that the punishment meted out had to be serious. I don’t know if ANY sin is “only wrong on a spiritual level.” All sins affect others (thus society) in one way or another, but God clearly viewed sexual sin as an abomination that needed to be eradicated.

    And Shawn, you said the military is not “…built upon…Christian morality.” I beg to differ (respectfully, of course). George Washington dishonorably drummed a homosexual out of the Army at Valley Forge. Washington was always criticizing his men (quite like Robert E. Lee and Stonewall Jackson) for cursing. Until the humanists gained control of the nation, the military had a clear bent toward morality, at least on the surface.

    Homosexuality, adultery, and other sexual sins hurt society. Until the sexual revolution of the 1960s started changing America, these sins were illegal. It was not a “civil rights” issue. It was a “protect society from danger” issue.

    It scares me that people will say since we don’t kick adulterers out of the military, we should allow even more sin to fester there. The sins God determined were serious enough to be punished by death adversely affect society (which includes the military). Those sins should, even today, be punishable by expulsion from the military.

  10. Can I call you OP … or is there another name we can call you, Organic Peas? 🙂

    Anyways, yes, in the OT sexual immorality was punishable by death. In the NT, though, we see that changed – Jesus and the woman caught in adultery (John 8). Unless, of course, I have missed a verse in the NT, where Jesus, Paul, Peter, etc, stated that people should still die for committing sexual sins: i.e. homosexuality, adultery, etc. If I have, please show me the verse ….

    Neither of us are saying that homosexuality is not a sin – it clearly is. However, can the military really “keep out” and “shame” one sin, while it allows many others to filter within the barracks?

    Thanks for clearing up my mistake about the beginnings of the military. But I still think, even though Washington may have had a spiritual influence on the military – in the beginnings – the current military is not based on Christian principles.

    Again, if we are going to call to account one sin, then we need to call to account all sins being done within the military. We cannot pick and choose.

    It comes down to this … we all have our personal opinions. Obviously, we are not going to change your opinion … neither are you going to change ours.

    Let’s agree to disagree.

    • Just so no one misunderstands what I’m saying: I am not advocating execution for homosexuals. I am not saying the NT calls for the execution of homosexuals. (However, James said that while the church at Jerusalem didn’t want to hang all sorts of regulations around the necks of Gentile believers, one of the few mandatory rules was abstaining from sexual immorality, including homosexuality)

      What I am saying is this: God, in the OT, prescribed death for homosexuality and adultery and other sins. If God found them so abominable that he ordered death for those who practiced these sins, should we wink at them today, and claim they are simply “spiritual” sins?

      There is a huge difference between homosexuality and gluttony. They cannot be biblically compared.

      So we should call into account all the sins being committed in the military that God Himself designanted as serious crimes that needed to be dealt with by the ultimate punishment. The others, unless they impact another person, are between God and that person.

      And OP is OK with me.

    • OP …

      Again, we are running in circles here. I see what you are saying. But I don’t think you are hearing what we are saying ….

      The “ultimate punishment” has already been dealt with – Jesus died for all, so that all may come before God in repentance, seeking wholeness and life from Him.

      The law is used to keep us in check – to know what is right and wrong (moral laws, that is). But our salvation is not found in keeping the laws perfect, but in Christ alone. Would you not agree?

      Everyone who broke a law – who sinned – was subject to death. All sin brings about death – no matter how “great” or “less” the sin is. Romans 6:23 states this pretty clearly: For the wages of sin is death …

      But read what Paul continues saying: … but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. Jesus triumphs over the law … over death. Our job as Christians is to love people – in truth and grace – towards the heart of the Father … to Jesus Christ Himself.

      If gays and lesbians – who actively practice homosexuality – were trying to gay rights within the Church, I would be having a different conversation. But they are trying to get the right to be who they are while in the military. The government runs the military … I highly doubt that many (or most) of the soldiers and officers in the military care what God likes and dislikes concerning morality. Do I wish the military were more “Godly” – YES. But such as it is, this isn’t the case.

      As I said before, gays and lesbians already serve in the military – and will continue to do so – we (the Church) can not stop them from doing so. Neither should we try. How is protesting and upholding “Don’t Ask Don’t Tell” conveying the message of Christ to the gay community? Because for every 10 fingers we point, in judgment, at them, they can (and will) point 20,000 back at us. The Church is in no room to talk when it comes to living within the world in “sinful” ways.

      I leave with this scripture – James 2:10-13 ….

      [10] For whoever keeps the whole law but fails in one point has become accountable for all of it. [11] For he who said, “Do not commit adultery,” also said, “Do not murder.” If you do not commit adultery but do murder, you have become a transgressor of the law. [12] So speak and so act as those who are to be judged under the law of liberty. [13] For judgment is without mercy to one who has shown no mercy. Mercy triumphs over judgment. (ESV)

      Gluttony and homosexuality are one in the same, in this context: both are sins, and both break the moral code of God. Now, I will agree that each sin gives out a different consequence, but sin is sin.

      God has shown humanity mercy, through Jesus Christ. Every person is afforded this – gay and straight. If we – the Church – remain hardcore against gay and lesbian PEOPLE, we are showing them judgment instead of mercy. We are not being imitators of our God. Notice I said PEOPLE … we all too often forget that this “battle about homosexuality” involves people.

      I’m curious, do you know anyone who is or who was gay? All that I have said stems from my own experiences as a gay man, who faced much discrimination from Christians.

      This blog / this ministry is trying to change the Church’s mindset and attitude about gays and lesbians, so that the Church can once again be an effective vessel within the GLBT community that shines forth the Truth and Grace of Christ.

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